camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
|
Post by camochef on Jul 9, 2015 9:23:41 GMT -5
James, You are totally correct about self pollination. And yes, shaking cages about twice/day does aid in pollinating, especially during periods of higher heat and humidity. Bees and wasps and other insects have very little to do with pollinating tomatoes, but it can occur on rare occasions. Your also correct about crossing two varieties, making a hybrid, but if both varieties are open pollinated, (heirlooms), this cross can be controlled to produce a stable descendant depending on which blossom is used as the receptor. You will get different results depending on which receptor is used, but they should be constant. Its best to grow them for a couple generations to assure their true. Some rush this process and get results that may be unstable. Enjoy! Camo
|
|
camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
|
Post by camochef on Jul 9, 2015 9:34:03 GMT -5
I will never do any cross breeding or seed saving of tomatoes. It's not really a serious interest of mine and I know that many people are creating some very nice new varieties of tomatoes and I'm glad. I don't know if she says that crossing two varieties of heirlooms is not a hybrid but the scientific community would disagree. It's splitting hairs, I know, but like I said I am a stickler for using correct terminology. I will try to use the term open-pollinated instead of heirloom, from now on to avoid confusion...but in my mind two heirlooms can cross either accidentally or deliberately and produce an heirloom tomato. I guess I should go to Tatiana's site and see if Keith Mueller's 4 sisters, created in 2009, from a cross of pink Brandywine and Cherokee Purple are called heirlooms or hybrids. Enjoy! Camo
|
|
|
Post by brownrexx on Jul 9, 2015 9:39:55 GMT -5
in my mind two heirlooms can cross either accidentally or deliberately and produce an heirloom tomato.
How about a hybrid heirloom? LOL
In any case my Jersey Boy (whatever we call it) is a cross between Brandywine and Rutgers is performing beautifully and unless something changes drastically in the rest of the season, I would recommend it.
I am done here for a while. I have to go out and shake my tomato cages. They humidity is 80% - again!!!!
|
|
camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
|
Post by camochef on Jul 9, 2015 10:02:06 GMT -5
I just went to Tatiana's tomato web page and found the 4 sisters are called: Gary O'Sena and Dora both say-Open-pollinated, created heirloom; stabilized intentional cross Bear Creek simply says-open pollinated and Liz Birt says stabilized intentional cross
So I guess its like the breath mint...we're both right. I know they were listed in the past simply as heirlooms, but you know how everything has to be politically correct nowadays. All 4 are really good tomatoes, but Bear Creek is a great tomato, besides...I think its an accidental cross with my German Johnson-Benton strain which produced a fantastic large black P. L. tomato last year that I call Barlow's Best Black. It was the best tasting tomato last year out of all that I grew. (43).
Open-Pollinated, open pollinated, open-pollinated! Enjoy! Camo
|
|
|
Post by desertwoman on Jul 9, 2015 10:05:52 GMT -5
This is an interesting discussion: heirloom/hybrid Just because tomato growers use the term interchangeably does not make it scientifically correct. I have no problem with you calling recently created varieties heirlooms but it is not technically correct, they are in fact hybrids created from heirloom varieties. You are correct that they probably should be called open pollinated but it's not really hurting anything for you to call them heirlooms since you are probably not writing a book or teaching a class with confusing terminology. A hybrid, by any other name, is still a hybrid. From my point of view, I feel it does hurt things to call something an heirloom when it is not- whether you are teaching/writing a book or not. This is how misinformation becomes "fact" in the general population. The word "heirloom" then doesn't mean anything. It becomes diluted. An heirloom(object), by definition, is something that has been in a family for generations. An heirloom plant has been around for decades; it has been savored. It has a history.
|
|
|
Post by James on Jul 9, 2015 10:27:51 GMT -5
I prefer to buy tomato seeds of a named variety, or buy started plants. I do not save tomato seeds for planting from the fruits I raise.
|
|
|
Post by lisaann on Jul 9, 2015 10:35:13 GMT -5
lisaann - do keep us posted when you sample those diff tomatoes from the same vine! I hope a ripe one shows up soon! I am VERY tired of looking at green tomatos. when you decide to create a deliberate hybrid, how do you know if the seed is really hybrid, or self fertile? Excellent question for this thread that took a twist and turn. It's like breakdancing!hahhaha homeguides.sfgate.com/crosspollinate-tomatoes-32654.htmlThere are a ton of sites to admire, but you have this basic way to ensure a cross to make a hybrid. See how you must work the flowers?
|
|
|
Post by lilolpeapicker on Jul 9, 2015 10:53:08 GMT -5
I did save some black krim seeds and started them the following season inside. I had less plants than I did the year before as that is the way I planned it. So why is it that you don't save seed if you are going to do starts in the next season if you are using heirlooms? I certainly understand why you wouldn't if they are hybrids if you want that specific result which you would get when they were crossed. when you decide to create a deliberate hybrid, how do you know if the seed is really hybrid, or self fertile? I guess you would make sure you don't shake, rattle and roll it!! (I couldn't help myself!)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 11:04:58 GMT -5
I agree with desertwoman when you cross two strains the result is a hybrid. an heirloom has to be grown without adding new genetics for 40 - 50 years. when you cross two heirlooms the result is a new type of tomato (hybrid). Also when breeding you will get very uniform F1 seeds from the cross but the F2 will start showing the recessive traits in approx 25%. you must breed for at least 5 generations to properly stabilize a plant. even longer if the traits you want are recessive
|
|
|
Post by brownrexx on Jul 9, 2015 11:40:41 GMT -5
created heirloom; stabilized intentional cross
Sounds like good descriptions to me and it accurately describes what they are without using the dreaded word hybrid which some people consider to be a bad thing. A good portion of the population equates hybrid with GMO so I can see why growers would not want to use it.
However, I don't consider it to be political correctness to use scientifically correct terms, it's just the right thing to do.
So why is it that you don't save seed if you are going to do starts in the next season if you are using heirlooms?
I have seen bees on my tomato flowers but of course with 3 hives of honeybees on my property, I probably see more bees than most of you. In any case I know for certain that some of my plants, heirloom or not, are cross pollinated by the bees.
I only grow 1 or 2 plants of each variety but I grow several varieties so I want to make sure I don't grow a seed from a cross pollinated one.
This has been a very good discussion and has caused us to really think in depth about some things. I am happy that we can have these type of discussions without arguing. It benefits everyone in my opinion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 13:01:27 GMT -5
I just want to add that although I am fairly new to gardening my father in law is a professional seed breeder in California whom I have learned a lot from so I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to breeding and genetics of filial generations.
|
|
|
Post by lisaann on Jul 9, 2015 13:11:13 GMT -5
Stabilized, intentional crop.It has a nice ring to it.
I have f4 seeds of Big Beef if anyone is interested.
|
|
|
Post by ecsoehng on Jul 9, 2015 20:51:39 GMT -5
Thanks all for a great discussion! Years ago I tried to grow seeds from Juliet to see if I could get the same tomato. The first generation plant was quite the same, but the second generation was not and I gave up. Now I notice that my bought Juliet starts, for the past few years the tomatoes have been getting bigger. This year my MIL brought me tomatoes from NJ that were grown commercially too and those were also larger than the Juliet of years ago.
Getting back to the original discussion, I always loved Opalka but haven't grown it in a few years. This years paste tomatoes are a bust. I wonder how those new round paste tomatoes are? Anyone growing them?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 21:59:52 GMT -5
I'm growing Opalka tomatoes. never had them before but want them for sauce/paste making.
|
|
|
Post by binnylou on Jul 10, 2015 0:45:48 GMT -5
Now I notice that my bought Juliet starts, for the past few years the tomatoes have been getting bigger. For the years that I have grown Juliets, they are consistently one ounce tomatoes. Do love those little babies!
|
|