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Post by desertwoman on Jul 8, 2015 15:47:54 GMT -5
I concur with BR, LA and pea. It's what I have always read and was taught.
(I'm too lazy to use the highlight/notification I'll probably stick to my abbreviations-quicker)
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Post by lilolpeapicker on Jul 8, 2015 18:04:48 GMT -5
Yes. I got notified.
Your right DW it is quicker without doing it.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 8, 2015 19:13:08 GMT -5
I only use the "tagging" when I want to be sure that someone sees a particular posting. I know that you guys read most things so I don't tag you and I like using the abbreviations anyway! I mostly use tagging for people who do not post every day and might miss something that I wanted them to see.
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camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
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Post by camochef on Jul 8, 2015 21:34:02 GMT -5
you have probably forgotten more information about breeding tomatoes that I will ever know but I will have to disagree with you here on terminology. First of all the generally accepted definition for an heirloom is an old open pollinated variety that has been continuously grown for 50 years or more so how could a plant developed in 2009 be called an heirloom? Secondly you are calling the breeding of two heirlooms a "cross" instead of a hybrid. Cross refers to cross pollination and cross pollination between two genetically different plants results in a hybrid. I looked at a few journals on plant breeding terminology and I see nothing to tell me different. I am sure you are totally correct in saying that some tomato breeders do not call crossing two heirlooms a hybrid, but in my book - it's a hybrid. I know that I am splitting hairs and getting focused on terminology but no matter what tomato breeders call it, scientifically it is still a hybrid. Brown, Would you feel better if I used the term open-pollinated instead of heirloom? Among dedicated tomato growers they are basically interchangeable. I've crossed pollinated many different tomatoes over the years, and none of the results are hybrids. I guess we better not get into such things as grafting or budding. I've noticed in quite a few postings here, that a little information can be a dangerous thing. Perhaps you'd like to check with Dr. Carolyn Male, the author of "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden" for an expert opinion. Your correct about the fact that I've probably forgotten more about tomatoes, but I do keep journals and have as many books on gardening as I have on Cooking and Baking. But...I'm not here to argue with others, just trying to guide the UN-informed. Camo
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Post by wheelgarden1 on Jul 8, 2015 23:53:42 GMT -5
We make juice, salsas, and sauces when we have a nice bounty of tomatoes --- that is, plenty to spare in addition to fresh eating and cooking. What I've always wanted to do is make highly concentrated "essence" paste to add a tiny, powerful bit of tomato taste to...well, anything. Have any of you done this? Yes, I know this is getting into recipe territory, may have to post this on the recipe forum later.
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camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
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Post by camochef on Jul 9, 2015 4:57:52 GMT -5
Camo, you have probably forgotten more information about breeding tomatoes that I will ever know but I will have to disagree with you here on terminology. First of all the generally accepted definition for an heirloom is an old open pollinated variety that has been continuously grown for 50 years or more so how could a plant developed in 2009 be called an heirloom? Secondly you are calling the breeding of two heirlooms a "cross" instead of a hybrid. Cross refers to cross pollination and cross pollination between two genetically different plants results in a hybrid. I looked at a few journals on plant breeding terminology and I see nothing to tell me different. I am sure you are totally correct in saying that some tomato breeders do not call crossing two heirlooms a hybrid, but in my book - it's a hybrid. I know that I am splitting hairs and getting focused on terminology but no matter what tomato breeders call it, scientifically it is still a hybrid. Brown, As I don't want to violate copyright laws, please read Dr. Carolyn Males. 100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden. Particularly the sections on "What is an heirloom tomato variety" and "Classification of Heirloom tomatoes", which goes on to explain 1.Commercial heirlooms; 2.Family heirlooms; 3. Created heirlooms; and 4.Mystery Group. Pay particular attention to Created heirlooms and some of the recently created "heirlooms". Many tomato experts disagree on the definition of the term heirloom. Ranging from open pollinated varieties that are at least 100 years old to those 50 years or older to open pollinated varieties that have been recently created, but grown out for several generations to dehybridize to an open pollinated form. If using initial hybrid seed, this could take from 3 to 10 years. She states that many people maintain that if an heirloom is created by deliberate cross-pollination, it isn't a true heirloom. Obviously, we are in different camps on this subject. Perhaps it would help if I simply used the term open pollinated instead of heirloom, but having spent my last 67 years using the term heirloom, it would be hard to change. No matter what we call them, the important thing is to enjoy growing them and even more importantly eating them! Enjoy yours! Camo
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 9, 2015 8:05:24 GMT -5
Would you feel better if I used the term open-pollinated instead of heirloom? Among dedicated tomato growers they are basically interchangeable. Just because tomato growers use the term interchangeably does not make it scientifically correct. I have no problem with you calling recently created varieties heirlooms but it is not technically correct, they are in fact hybrids created from heirloom varieties. You are correct that they probably should be called open pollinated but it's not really hurting anything for you to call them heirlooms since you are probably not writing a book or teaching a class with confusing terminology. But...I'm not here to argue with others, just trying to guide the UN-informed. I am not here to argue either and I am sure that everyone here, including me, appreciates the information that you share. I may not be a tomato expert but I am somewhat of a stickler for using correct terms so when you say that crossing 2 plant varieties is not a hybrid, then I must disagree. However I DO agree with this the important thing is to enjoy growing them and even more importantly eating them!
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camochef
Blooming
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 171
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Post by camochef on Jul 9, 2015 8:25:31 GMT -5
I may not be a tomato expert but I am somewhat of a stickler for using correct terms so when you say that crossing 2 plant varieties is not a hybrid, then I must disagree. Brown, Not to continue our different view-points, I really wish you'd read Carolyn's book mentioned above. She is a well known expert. I think the book is now out of print, but can be found in most local libraries. She's posted under carolyn137 on many forums from Garden Web to Tomatoville and the now defunct Idigmygarden as well as many other sites. While it certainly could be expanded on today, it's considered by most tomato aficionado's to be a must have in their gardening libraries and has been responsible for starting many down the path to heirloom tomatoes. I know it's a book I refer to constantly, and even though I have a large amount of books on tomatoes, it's one of my favorites! Enjoy! Camo
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Post by James on Jul 9, 2015 8:37:10 GMT -5
Tomatoes are self fertile. Meaning they can be pollinated by flowers on the same plant, even the same flower. However they do need some help in getting the pollen to the stigma. A little shake will do the job. When grown outside the wind does the job. Tomato blossoms are not particularly attractive to bees so if there is anything else blooming, the tomatoes get neglected by the bees. Because of this crosses between two varieties in your garden are rare.
Hybrid: In my understanding a cross between two varieties creates a Hybrid. It has genes from each parent and is said to be hybridized. Yes! Now if you save the seed from the hybrid and plant it you have the possibility of getting some plants like either parent and more like the hybrid. In other words the offspring will vary.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 9, 2015 8:40:46 GMT -5
I know who Carolyn is, I have seen many of her posting previously on idig. I will never do any cross breeding or seed saving of tomatoes. It's not really a serious interest of mine and I know that many people are creating some very nice new varieties of tomatoes and I'm glad. I don't know if she says that crossing two varieties of heirlooms is not a hybrid but the scientific community would disagree. It's splitting hairs, I know, but like I said I am a stickler for using correct terminology. Not to continue our different view-points Not a problem, it's a discussion, not an argument and I welcome your viewpoint.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 9, 2015 8:47:40 GMT -5
Tomato blossoms are not particularly attractive to bees so if there is anything else blooming, the tomatoes get neglected by the bees. Interestingly, I recently read that greenhouse growers of tomatoes purchase a species of bumble bees to improve their pollination rates. There are companies that raise these bees to sell to growers. This is the first time I have ever heard of this but I thought that it was interesting. It also said that wherever tomato plants originated (I forget where this was), they were pollinated by native bees and that they mutated to become self pollinating because they began to grow in areas where those bees were not native.
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Post by tbird on Jul 9, 2015 9:05:52 GMT -5
I will never do any cross breeding or seed saving of tomatoes. LOL, never say never! It's a long life, and after 30 more years of gardening - who knows what will take your fancy?
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Post by tbird on Jul 9, 2015 9:13:20 GMT -5
I also have the same definitions as Brown, et. al. for hybrid and heirloom.
The hybrid goes back to biology class and Mendel's smooth and wrinkled peas. With heirloom, just a dictionary definition of the term indicates something of age.
Of course, language is dynamic and changeable - except for latin!, so if a particular community starts using heirloom and open pollinated interchangeably, then that vocabulary may develop within the group. However, that terminology has not been accepted more widely, so I'm not sure - linguistically - where the line is drawn on usage here.
per merriam webster:
noun a valuable object that has belonged to a family for several generations. NORTH AMERICAN denoting a traditional variety of plant or breed of animal that is not associated with large-scale commercial agriculture. "his garden is filled with heirloom vegetables"
so this may match somewhat here - traditional could go either way definitionally. however, one of my thoughts was that heirlooms denoted those varieties grown before big agriculture came on the scene.
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Post by lilolpeapicker on Jul 9, 2015 9:17:11 GMT -5
Even experts seem to disagree on correct terminology of various subjects, tomatoes not excluded. What is clear is that if you are attempting to communicate something specific the hearer has to understand the terminology as the speaker means it. If not there is confusion. AND I am getting confused as time goes on...hahaha. (kidding)
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Post by tbird on Jul 9, 2015 9:18:42 GMT -5
That would suggest to me that the variety isn't stable yet. I went through the same thing with Black Brandywine a number of years ago. Actually had three different tomato shapes on the same plant. I had one year where they actually produced the best tasting tomato of the year, but that didn't last for long as the next few years, they were terrible. Grew them long enough to make sure its wasn't weather related, then let them fall to the wayside. enjoy! this is really interesting! And - I guess since tomatoes are self fertile, when you decide to create a deliberate hybrid, how do you know if the seed is really hybrid, or self fertile? and can it be something of both, or seeds within that tomato some one way some another? I find different tomatoes growing on the same vine fascinating! I can't imagine what is happening genetically that this is occurring, where some cluster are expressing one characterstic here and another there, as with lisaaann's tomato. lisaann - do keep us posted when you sample those diff tomatoes from the same vine!
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