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Post by mountshastagarden on Jan 23, 2016 21:02:17 GMT -5
Are there any gardeners in the group from the Flint River watershed? I am curious about how the river became so corrosive. Commercial agriculture? Of course, the lead was in the water pipes, but the Flint River water corroded the pipes and released the lead. I imagine the area is rainy enough in the summer so your irrigation needs would be minimal compared to California.
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Post by lisaann on Jan 23, 2016 21:22:36 GMT -5
kimmsr🕊 is in Michigan, Maybe he knows something.
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Post by desertwoman on Jan 23, 2016 21:53:38 GMT -5
I don't know details but that river was an industrial dumping ground for years. You put that many chemicals into a river you're going to have a soup that will corrode anything.
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Post by SpringRain🕊️ on Jan 23, 2016 23:15:59 GMT -5
There have been several articles on this issue, one of which identified a specific substance that should have been added to the water when it was taken from the Flint River. I don't recall for sure what it was but will try to find the article; there's been increasing coverage in local online newspaper sources since Flint is just NE of the SE Michigan area. This is an excerpt with just a general reference to the leaching of lead from pipes: "DEQ and the state have taken much of the blame for not requiring Flint to have corrosion controls in place when it switched to using more corrosive Flint River water in 2014 as a temporary cost-cutting move. That apparently allowed more lead to leach from old service pipes and the state has said Flint's infrastructure could require more than $700-million in fixes." www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/01/22/inspector-looking-epas-handling-flint-water/79170150/My recollection is that this particular substance or chemical would have either counteracted or minimized the lead build-up in the water, but, again, it's been awhile since I first read about it. The issue is getting a lot more attention now, which it should, as should Gov. Snyder. Given his very pro-corporate positions and past stances, I don't really believe that he's as concerned as he pretends to be. This is a good article on a family's experience and how competent scientists were brought in to address a crisis which was being denied by officials: www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/23/virginia-tech-expert-helped-expose-flint-water-crisis/79251004/We don't go to Flint that much, and generally only to Cracker Barrel for lunch or dinner but will definitely not be going to Flint any more. MountShastaGarden, the region is heavily industrial. I expect there are many old plants, including some shuttered auto plants as I recall correctly. I don't know whether there are any that were leaking toxic waste decades ago. It's a very depressing area, and as I write, other than Cracker Barrel, since my relatives who lived there have died, and since Harbor Freight now has a store locally, we don't go to Flint very often. BTW, the issue of water control by the City of Detroit has been a controversial one for years, particularly since Detroit has incurred so much negative publicity over its inability to manage many aspects of the city, as well as the scandals arising from the corruption of former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Counties have been discussing creation of a suburban water authority to wrest control away from Detroit. Here are some photos, the first of which is appalling, if not repugnant and nauseating: www.businessinsider.com/heartbreaking-images-of-the-flint-crisis-2016-1
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Post by SpringRain🕊️ on Jan 23, 2016 23:26:15 GMT -5
Just found another article that explains the transition to water from the Flint River, and guess who's authority it was under? "For decades, Flint bought its water from the Detroit Water And Sewerage Department. In 2013, the Flint city council voted to join the Karegnondi Water Authority, a new system that would pump water from Lake Huron. But Flint couldn't connect until 2016, so the city, operating under the control of emergency managers appointed by Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder (R), opted to save money by using the Flint River in the meantime." www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-flint-water-got-poisonous_us_569907f5e4b0b4eb759e1426This article offers insights I hadn't learned before: Flint failed to monitor the water quality, and the Michigan DEQ also failed to provide monitoring. Apparently phosphates were necessary to reduce the corrosion but were not used, and this failure was not detected, presumably b/c of the lack of monitoring.
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Post by pepperhead212 on Jan 23, 2016 23:58:10 GMT -5
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Post by mountshastagarden on Jan 24, 2016 0:47:47 GMT -5
As far as industrial pollution, It doesn't look like there are any big towns or industrial areas upstream from Holloway Reservoir, from where they were drawing the water. Wikipedia says it's likely that the main pollutant, as far as making the water corrosive, was chlorides from road salts. link
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Post by kimmsr🕊 on Jan 24, 2016 6:43:34 GMT -5
I am over on the other side of the state from Flint but I have not found anything that would explain why that river water is so corrosive. High levels of chloride are present but that does not mean it is all from the use of road salt or all of the rivers in Michigan would be as corrosive as well. I do know that General Motors stopped using Flint River as a source of cooling water some time back because it was causing corrosion in the machinery, so this has been a known problem for much longer than a couple of years.
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Post by SpringRain🕊️ on Jan 24, 2016 11:49:11 GMT -5
Pepperhead, I read the article you cited; it almost has the same story line as other chemical contamination sites... a combination of industrial and commercial interests overriding common sense, precaution, concern for the populace, and of course health issues for workers as well as residents. And, typically, it's an embarrassment that a company was so intent on its own agenda that it for years it knew and ignored the environmental catastrophe it was causing.
I thought this comment by the general manager of the polluting plant in question was so typical of a corporate response:
“If the responsible people of this area want a prosperous community with continuing growth, we must realize there will be changes in our natural surroundings. Very few of us are willing to live like the Indians, in spite of our idyllic dreams.”
Only problem is some of them will suffer during their lifetimes, which probably would be shortened by that prosperity. So where's the real balance or benefit?
I remember also the mess that arose from the Love Canal debacle.
Seems like another too frequent and too sad situation of a standoff between economic growth and jobs vs. health of workers and residents.
MountShasta, I personally put little faith in Wikipedia because it's not always supported by academic articles (I've seen the occasional comment that statements haven't yet been verified) and from what I understand can be a contribution by nonacademic sources. I would also take issue with the suggestion that road salt is the cause.
In SE Michigan where I live, roads are liberally salted, often when unnecessary. Salt trucks regularly make 2 - 4 passes even for just a 2" snowfall. Thus far the water hasn't stunk or turned color, and still tastes good. That's a rather simplistic response, but I think in Flint there has been blame shifting and will continue to be, so if someone can shift the blame to the road commission and away from the people who failed to monitor in the first place, well, then they've kind of dodged the bullet for awhile just by that attempt at redirecting the blame.
One of the saddest parts beyond the toll on human health is that anyone moving to another area needs not only to research for issues like schooling, safety, stability but also to determine what hidden ecological disasters might be brewing.
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Post by mountshastagarden on Jan 24, 2016 14:16:19 GMT -5
If it is road salt, that would probably not have been a problem if the water had been treated with orthophosphate. That would probably also have mitigated the iron leaching from the pipes. However, it would not have solved the problem of bacteria or the gasoline like hydrocarbon. The Google earth photo shows Holloway Reservoir being very green, indicating an algae buildup from too much nutrients. Wikipedia didn't use a published, peer reviewed source, but it was a quote from Dr. Marc Edwards, one of the heroes who tested for the lead.
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Post by gakaren on Mar 5, 2016 0:40:13 GMT -5
I just have one request, please. Can you specify which state you are talking about if you are talking about the "Flint River", cause I have one near me also in Ga.....it runs through Albany, Ga....S.W. area. Thanks. It took me a few minutes to figure out you were talking about Mi. & not Ga.
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