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Post by davidjp on Oct 27, 2017 21:55:52 GMT -5
I thought Mr Dowlings garden experiment with his parallel beds very interesting, especially the reduction of production in 'fluffed' beds. But will his results in one soil type in SW England be replicated in S. California, or Virginia, or ? My guess would be that in different regions, soils, and climates of the world, results would vary.
I wonder that myself. One thing I notice listening to him and I'm a big fan, I have three of his books, is that he mentions let the earthworms do the work.
So I have intensively enriched beds in southern California that are my main vegetable beds. I just dont see too many earthworms when I have dug through those beds. I see a few but really not many. I also have in the past had a garden in southern England not a million miles from Charles dowdings and I saw many more earthworms there. I understand earthworms are native there and not here.
But my compost disappears at about the same rate here if not more quickly than there with tons of earthworms. So I wonder if there just is enough other critters in my soil or whether it is my low level of earthworms still do the job. I'm thinking that its not just earthworms but the whole community in the soil that really pulls it down and digests it. I like to think I have good soil, it certainly looks and feels good.
I think that maybe those results would be replicated in many places even if the soil ecosystem might vary a little. I mean organic matter accumulates on the surface in most places and ends up as part of the soil.
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Post by desertwoman on Oct 27, 2017 22:47:24 GMT -5
I love this thread. Lots of good perspectives and commentary. I like to think I have good soil, it certainly looks and feels good. And I think Peter has talked about smelling and tasting your soil, along with the look and feel. I am excited with my decision to experiment this Fall with no till in my veggie garden. Nary a shovel or any other tool has touched the soil. I have layered shredded leaves, coffee grounds, compost, along with composted manure in some beds and mushroom compost (that was given to me) in other beds. I will top this all off with a thick layer of shredded leaf mulch as more leaves become available over the next couple of weeks. My flower beds have been no till forever. I simply add leaf mulch in the fall and add compost in the spring with more leaf or pine straw mulch. Fruit trees also are no till and are put to bed in the Fall with leaf mulch; I compost feed them in the spring and top with more mulch. Can't wait for spring planting to see how my veggie beds do!
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Post by kimmsrđź•Š on Oct 28, 2017 5:20:22 GMT -5
gianna wrote: "Many people who consider themselves 'no till' use a broadfork in their gardens."
Even that should not be needed if the soil has adequate amounts of organic matter in it. But, disturbing the Soil Food Web as little as necessary is more beneficial than any disturbance.
Although many sources of information make reference to mycorrhiza fungi understand that there is no such thing and the term mycorrhiza refers to a relationship some fungi form with plants, a mutually beneficial relationship. Different fungi form that relationship with different plants and not all fungi will do that. A fungi that forms that mutually beneficial relationship with an Elm tree will not form the same relationship with a melon plant, for example.
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Post by lilolpeapicker on Oct 28, 2017 9:12:35 GMT -5
davidjp , desertwoman , kimmsrđź•Š , gianna So will you be planting any fine seeds into this leaf cover in the spring? How would you consider planting carrot or beet seeds? I don't think planting bean or pea seeds would be difficult. This is a great discussion.
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Post by davidjp on Oct 28, 2017 10:04:19 GMT -5
lilolpeapicker
I usually just pull back any remaining compost on the surface and make a short row or broad row depending on what I'm sowing. I really only sow directly a relatively few crops, arugula, salad mixes, carrots, onions. The vast majority I sow in modules and transplant out, but I have a year round growing climate so usually I'm pulling out something then adding something else to take its place. Although that's mainly concentrated in two big phases, now for cool season crops and spring for warm season, so it might be different in a different climate.
I wonder how important an intact mycorrhizal fungi network is for the majority of relatively short lived annual vegetable plants we grow is though. From my limited reading I've heard that annual vegetable plants are more dependent on the bacterial part of the soil web. Just from those videos from Charles Dowling collecting yield data over a few years it seems that its basically very similar comparing yields in a no dig to a conventional dug bed. Presumably the only difference in similarly fertilized amended beds is that one will have limited fungal network whereas the other one will have a chance to establish a viable network.
I suspect in a well amended rich soil it may not be as critical but I just think its a better way to go and I'm sure it can help to have viable mycorrhizae networks
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Post by gianna on Oct 28, 2017 11:12:41 GMT -5
I usually just pull back any remaining compost on the surface and make a short row or broad row depending on what I'm sowing. I really only sow directly a relatively few crops, arugula, salad mixes, carrots, onions. The vast majority I sow in modules and transplant out, but I have a year round growing climate so usually I'm pulling out something then adding something else to take its place. Although that's mainly concentrated in two big phases, now for cool season crops and spring for warm season, so it might be different in a different climate. This. I use mostly transplants. It saves time, as well as evading the multitude of birds that find many seeds/seedlings in an arid environment irresistible. I don't grow carrots. Beets I find germinate better in a mix and started in modules/plug flat sections. With beets, you can get some mild cragginess at their bottoms, but being able to space them well is a greater benefit to me. When growing something smaller, just push away any mulch until they are established. If you look at Dowding's gardens, it appears that he doesn't use much mulch. But then in England he gets this stuff they call rain. I also start all lettuce in seed/plug flats, one seed at a time. But these are not grown out in the ground, but in a 'passive' hydroponic setting off the ground (their roots are always in shallow water) and covered all around with wire to twart birds, bunnies, squirrels, slugs and snails. And no dirty leaves. When I'm in gardening mode, I try to have lots of seedlings ready to go out. Right now I have basil, collards, kale, broccoli, cabbage, pac choi that are planting ready, with beets, more cabbage, and some bachelor buttons just planted. Do all of these make it into the garden? No. Sometimes they get moved into a larger module, and sometimes there is just not a place for them and they...die. But I have more seed than I ever will use, and germinating things is fun.
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Post by gianna on Oct 28, 2017 11:26:31 GMT -5
I wonder how important an intact mycorrhizal fungi network is for the majority of relatively short lived annual vegetable plants we grow is though.
I think it's nice to imagine a pure garden without disturbing the soil at all and letting the fungi etc do what they do. But a vegetable garden is not really a natural place when compared to a pristine meadow or forest or native chaparral. We are constantly planting and removing different things, attempting to remove nasty perennial weeds, rotating our crops, bringing in wood chips from various trees, trapping gophers, etc.
We also garden for different reasons. I don't garden for money or because I'll starve, I garden because I love it and prefer to eat what I grow. Although I'm aiming for a version of no till, it will be my version. And if I get 10% less by occasionally fluffing a bed to aerate it (which I am not convinced is harmful here), I'll still grow more than we'll ever need or use. I prefer to do what is fun. And my soil is in very good condition after years of composting and mulching and fluffing, despite the drought.
edit: When I first started this garden, I was going to 'do it right'. At that time years ago, double digging was suggested, and when looking at the success those gardeners had, I was convinced. So I decided to double dig. Half-way through the first bed I realized this was not going to happen, lol. But you couldn't argue with the success the double diggers were having. And that one bed that year was really nice.
Guess there is more than one way to pet a cat.
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Post by davidjp on Oct 28, 2017 11:55:10 GMT -5
But then in England he gets this stuff they call rain. Very true, not to digress but I think this is interesting, the average annual rainfall for London is 23 inches a year, for Los Angeles its 18. So not a huge difference but the real difference is that 23 inches is spread out throughout the year so almost every month has the same amount, a little more in winter but not dramatically whereas here as you know its incredibly seasonal and averages have little meaning, we could have 2 inches this year or 60. Charles Dowding is based in Somerset I think, they will get more rain than 23 inches as its farther west but not dramatically so.
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Post by gianna on Oct 28, 2017 12:17:40 GMT -5
davidjp, Opps... I've been spelling Mr Dowding's name wrong. I corrected the last one, but for any others... oh well. Sorry Mr.D.
Not to drift the thread too much, but our water here can be abysmal. It has been OK this past year because the reservoir got partially filled, but prior to that, our district was giving us mostly well water. It was so hard, and it had an odor in addition to all the chlorine they were adding. Surely the plants would have preferred something better. Even one inch of rain a month would have been very welcome. But that just is never going to happen here.
Back to 'no-till'. Today I'm going to plant cover crop seed in another bed, and cover the bed I did yesterday (fluffed then heaped with organic material) with plastic to conserve moisture till the first rain - which could be as early as next week.
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Post by kimmsrđź•Š on Oct 30, 2017 4:57:15 GMT -5
If one is practicing no-till the planting bed width should not be so wide that walking on that soil is necessary. Keep the bed width narrow enough so you can reach the center easily without stomping on the planting area.
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Post by gianna on Oct 30, 2017 11:37:02 GMT -5
I have beds, some raised, some recessed. The recessed ones were made a couple years ago to help collect rainwater from the rain gutters. But the soil is so porous, there is no penetration problem at all - no puddles. None of my beds have sides, though in the past I tried that. Too many problems, so I eliminated them. I prefer no rigid sides far more, but my soil allows that.
I'm not convinced most home vegetable gardens ever have a complete fungal network. Crop plants are planted and harvested with sometimes several plantings in a year. If fungal connections are species specific, or even within related groups, I highly doubt the fungus (or fungi) for celery (originally a bog plant) is going to be present in my formerly chaparral, dry hillside soil. I grow varieties developed in all parts of the world as well.
If you plant legumes and want good nitrogen fixation nodules to form, at least for the first few years, you are advised to inoculate your seeds with specific bacteria because they are not present in all soils. It would not be a surprise if in the future, fungal spores for certain crops became available.
In the meantime, we do what is acceptable to us. I'm convinced a good gardener can have success with a full range of approaches, and in a full range of soils/conditions.
Yep. It's just another way of gardening. I'm not going for the healthiest of soil flora, though getting close on some levels may well be both desirable and beneficial. Just like 'organic' gardening - I'm not a purist in that either. I want good healthy garden plants with less work. Though the past few weeks I've been working like a dog to get there, lol. And it's been great fun.
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Post by octave1 on Oct 31, 2017 9:37:59 GMT -5
One thing I read about soil compaction is that it does not occur only at a surface level. The compaction takes also place at a deeper level, in the subsoil, and this is where a tiller may be useless. Subsoil compaction is a serious soil conservation issue and a long-term threat to soil productivity.
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Post by James on Oct 31, 2017 11:55:29 GMT -5
"Subsoil compaction is a serious soil conservation issue and a long-term threat to soil productivity."
Hmmmmm.... I dunno. I reckon the roots of plants go quite deep. Down to 8 feet deep for many of our garden plants. As these plant roots die and decay, they reduce soil compaction. Anyhow there is nothing much we can do about those lower levels. We might till the top few inches with a tiller or get a good moldboard plow and turn the soil a bit deeper. Even if we do not plow or till the soil will do fine. Gee, I have 90 acres out in Avon and much of it is a mountain. The soil is heavy in clay. Never gets tilled nor irrigated yet it is covered with growth. Grasses, flowers, sage brush, and maple trees.
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Post by James on Oct 31, 2017 12:03:06 GMT -5
I think you have received some good guidance here. I would steer away from plastic though. Use cardboard and mulch. Do you have a lawn? Grass clippings make a great mulch. When the leaves fall off the trees gather them up and they go on the garden. Have fun!
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Post by gianna on Oct 31, 2017 13:06:12 GMT -5
I would steer away from plastic though. Use cardboard and mulch.
Plastic and cardboard are two tools that I use in certain circumstances.
Plastic is perhaps more useful in areas where there are water concerns. I use it to cover sides and tops of compost piles so they don't go dry. I also use it to solarize/heat up moist beds/mulch to facilitate decomposition.
I'm also interested in the use of plastic/tarps for creating what they call 'stale seedbeds' or 'occultation'. This is a technique that is used primarily for weed control. You prepare your beds, water them, then cover for 2-4-6 weeks, depending on the season. This allows weed seeds to germinate in an ideal situation, but subsequently die from lack of light. Remove the tarp/plastic and then plant. Some supplemental weeding may be necessary, but as long as the soil isn't disturbed again, you'll have far fewer weeds.
There are of course downsides to using plastic. Well, ...it's plastic... which many people find aesthetically unpleasing in a garden situation. For some plastics, there may be concern about leachates, especially in the sun. And unless you use UV stabilized stuff, it can break down over time leaving tiny bits in your soil.
Cardboard is another useful tool. But apparently if you are a strict organic grower, in some 'jurisdictions' it is not approved for organic growing. It's not the paper, it's the glue used to stick the paper layers together that is at issue. JM Fortier says in his area, cardboard is an organic no-no. But he's in Canada, and maybe things have changed the last few years.
I use cardboard to line areas where I don't want things to grow at all. Then cover it with deep mulch - that will last a few years. This has been very effective in my blueberry enclosure.
There also are many videos that use cardboard to suppress weeds when starting lasagna no-till beds, but some call the effectiveness of that into question since it prevents exchange between the soil organisms and the mulch piled on top. The layer of mulch alone should be enough to prevent annual weeds from growing.
To me they are both useful tools, but each have their limitations. As they say, your mileage may vary.
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