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Post by claude on Aug 24, 2015 10:07:13 GMT -5
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Post by claude on Aug 24, 2015 10:15:59 GMT -5
Increase se in roundup usage.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 24, 2015 10:20:51 GMT -5
Although I do agree that Roundup is a bad thing for people and the environment, I would hesitate to put a lot of faith in a graph like this one.
It is a plot of roundup use vs cases of autism. It may show a relationship but is certainly not proof as many other things have also increased over the same time period and I see no plots showing those.
This is not an actual study as far as I can tell.
Possibly you should include a link to the site where this plot is published?
I am not quick to jump to conclusions. I remember that many people were positive that autism was linked to vaccines and now that myth has been debunked.
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Post by lilolpeapicker on Aug 24, 2015 15:27:39 GMT -5
I wanted the website where this came from to read the article that must have come with this.
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Post by claude on Aug 24, 2015 18:57:44 GMT -5
people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/Entropy/entropy-15-01416.pdfI had the hardest time getting this darn link to post. I think my iPad is on its way out. Under Dr. Stephanie Seneff you will find those graphs for some of the PowerPoint presentations...I'm interested in what Bx and Pea think
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Post by claude on Aug 24, 2015 19:03:25 GMT -5
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Post by kimmsrđź•Š on Aug 25, 2015 5:50:08 GMT -5
Many people have noted, and commented, on this increase in incidence of Autism as the use of glyphosate products have increased but no one is really investigating cause and effect. The manufacturers of these products had summarily dismissed concerns about whether there may be some link and our "consumer protection agencies" have accepted that judgment.
The same thing happened back in the 1960's when the EPA actually did what they were meant to do and as a result of that we have 3, no9w ex, superfund sites that will be monitored forever and paid for by you and me and 2 superfund sites that still have systems in place to purge contaminated ground water that will be in place for the next 25 years (current estimates) that you and I will be paying for. History should tell us that these manufacturers are not to be trusted.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 25, 2015 8:21:59 GMT -5
Dr. Seneff is obviously a very intelligent and educated woman and she works at MIT which is certainly an impressive institution.
However she conducts computer research which looks for references to the item she is researching and pulls up references and compares them (like a really fancy Google).
She obviously understands her biochemistry and biology and makes "possible" conclusions based on evidence from other scientists papers. She is not doing any independent research of her own.
I read her paper and here is one thing that she says:
The pathologies to which glyphosate could plausibly contribute include inflammatory bowel disease, obesity, depression, ADHD, autism, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, multiple sclerosis, cancer, cachexia, infertility, and developmental malformations.
Note that she says plausibly contribute which means that she suspects but does not know for sure and that list is a HUGE number of diseases so she is not just looking at Autism.
I think that computer generated models have value but they are only as good as the data that is inputted into them.
I could graph the incidence of autism against the total population (which is also increasing) and say that increased population is the cause of autism. There are many things that are increasing during the same time period as her graphs but they are not all the cause of autism.
I totally agree with her that Roundup exposure is a bad thing but I don't think that her computer model proves that it causes autism and I would advise people to use caution when totally believing a "study" like this one.
For myself, I would rather see a real study with actual patients done in a real lab before I believe it.
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Post by claude on Aug 25, 2015 8:53:12 GMT -5
Well, yes. You are right. She compiles reports of seemingly unconnected data and makes connections..although it is not as definitive as a true, specific, over time with live bodies would be, for me, it gives me pause.
That along with the discussion of the shikimate pathway..and the way our gut works.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 25, 2015 9:05:40 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely think that she makes some good points but I hesitate to jump to conclusions especially since some people are still convinced that autism is caused by vaccinations and it has been proven NOT to be true.
I would hate for people to become convinced that now Roundup is the cause of Autism and some other causative factor is overlooked.
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Post by oliverman on Aug 30, 2015 22:49:17 GMT -5
Sales of organic food and autism rates have just as strong of correlation. As a mathematician, I can not emphasize enough, correlation does not mean causation!
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Post by kimmsrđź•Š on Sept 13, 2015 5:41:07 GMT -5
So, oliverman, are you saying there is no reason to look into a possible link because the increased use of a number of products also follows the increase in rates of autism?
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Post by lilolpeapicker on Sept 13, 2015 7:57:27 GMT -5
Also, it could also said be that the increase sales and use of organic food correlates because of the connection with increased use of RoundUp and autism.
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Post by claude on Sept 13, 2015 8:27:22 GMT -5
Correlation does not mean causation, true. It is not definite. Scientific minds, that question the world around them..the changes..the increases..do see the environment as a variable. Testing of products that is incomplete...levels that continue to rise in our soil, water and the food we eat. This week the Supreme Court overturned the EPA's approval of a pesticide saying that it failed to test the safety of the product over time. Maybe things are a changing..consumers demanding antibiotic free meats..fish farming becoming organic and nutrient based, choosing to pay more to have organic dairy, and produce. Correlation does however make scientific and mathematic minds...pause...until more testing is done.
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Post by octave on Sept 13, 2015 9:27:03 GMT -5
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